Mark Boucher


Submitted by Trial User:

Do you always use a technical “chart-based” stop or do you use percent-based rules, like protecting a percentage of profits?

mark boucher:

I always use a technical “chart-based” stop although there are times in an extremely strong runaway move when a stock takes off and there are virtually no support levels after a huge runup. In this case I will generally let a stock correct no more than 40% of the upmove. Often though the stock makes a technical support level before this 40% rule is triggered. I do not protect profits. The market does not know or care where my position was entered and one must let the market action itself determine your trading – not your position!

Submitted by EKADEH:

Mark: How do you find under-valued stocks in this kind of market?

mark boucher:

Good question. To be perfectly honest in this type of market I divide my portfolio up into trading stocks, in which valuations are not quite as important and into investing stocks. And I always have at least twice as many investing stocks as trading stocks. Many of the stocks, like HD for example, on our lists, have nice technical breakouts but very poor valuation – we use these for short-term tactical trades.

But there are also stocks, like GICOF or ANF, or HMC or others that have PE’s below their current or expected growth rate. Many of these in this environment are turnaround situations (ANF and HMC). Others to watch now are Israeli tech stocks, which are still undervalued and have excellent growth potential. There’s not doubt that it’s tougher to find value here – but if you keep your criteria of looking for PE that’s at a discount to expected growth you can still find many good candidates that are making new highs and runaway price action. These are the ones to concentrate on

Submitted by traderx21:

What role does diversification play in your risk control strategy?

mark boucher:

Diversification is critical to controling portfolio-wide risk, which is a form of risk that few traders are aware of. Our rules force us to constantly have positions in runaway markets in different asset classes and to not concentrate too heavily (33%) in any one sector. Often this means letting a profit run and then having to continually pare down a positions size on a monthly (or 21 bar period if not using daily bars). We also try to have both longs and shorts in our portfolio constantly, although we let the trend and our new high new low list help us determine how to divide our capital among longs and shorts. When the trend is up and strong we may be 80% long and 20% short. When the trend is not clear we’re more evenly divided. And we can even be 80% short and 20% long in an extended strong bear market.

Submitted by Trial User:

Mark, money management appears to be the key to successful trading. Why do so few packages offer support to help one manage their portfolio and provide money management support for stops, risk at a portfolio level, and sizing trades?

mark boucher:

I guess because it’s hard to give hard and fast rules in a software system that could be well utilized by a large enough market audience to be profitable. Also, money management is like exercize – lot’s of people like to talk about it, but few really do it because it’s difficult and takes more discipline than the average trader possesses.

Actually I think it is good – you must do the work within yourself to master this most important aspect of trading. No magic wand will do it for you.

What we do is keep a constant series of 6-levels of risk checks on our portfolio and positions on a daily basis. I suggest you watch individual position risk, sector risk, diversification, and total portfolio risk very closely. Never risk more than 2% on one position. Try not to let a sector grow to more than 33%-40% of your portfolio allocation. Diversify among at least 3 unrelated sectors and always have at least 3 different asset classes in your portfolio. Finally make sure that if you were stopped out of absolutely everything in your portfolio that you would take no more than a 20% hit.

Submitted by Johna:

Let’s talk about the other basic element of your trading approach: market selection. How do you decide which markets offer the best opportunities?

mark boucher:

First we look at what I like to call “runaway market action” where a trading vehicle is making a very strong trend, is rising and high (or low for shorts) in relative strength, and has lots of explosive technical action like gaps, large range days, flags, and is not correcting (38% or greater correction), but is merely consolidating and then moving in the trend strongly again.

So the first screen is that the market is yelling strong trend at you.

Next I look at other variables to see if a vehicle has what I like to call “fuel”. Fuel is the elements necessary for the strong trend to continue. I like stocks where earnings are growing at 25% or more and EPS rank is above 80. I like institutional holdings to be growing from a low level of under 10 ideally. I like low debt and a good business that looks to me like it will grow strongly in the future. I like decent value, where a stock is priced at a PE that is less than its expected growth rate.

I also look at other models. Lots of technicals, like volume accumulation and stock price action patterns. But also things like liquidity and interest rate movements in that country. Macro-economic fundamentals. Industry and sector outlooks. Valuation for that market as a whole.

We like to have as many of these factors as possible come together and point to big potential in a vehicle that is displaying very strong relative strength and very strong runaway technicals so that the market is merely confirming what looks like very strong underlying potential.

Be very selective! And look at a broad array of asset classes. We’ve been lucky to have the most lucrative bull market in history over the last 15 years in stocks. Some day this too will pass. The traders that can and have also been looking at currencies, global bonds, commodities, and other asset classes will always be able to find runaway trends to exploit. Those fixated on stocks may someday feel like the gold-bugs of the early 1980’s – they were stuck on something that just drifted lower.

Submitted by Moderator:

Welcome to the tradingmarkets.COM Live Forum, featuring Mark Boucher.

Mark has been the manager of the Midas Trust Fund, Cayman Islands, since 1992. In 1998, his fund was ranked number one in the world by Nelson’s World’s Best Money Managers for its five-year annual compounded rate of return of 26.6%. He also is the author of the highly-acclaimed book “The Hedge Fund Edge: Maximum Profit/Minimum Risk Global Trend Trading Strategies” (1998, John Wiley & Sons). His indicator lists appear every night on tradingmarkets.COM’s Hedge Fund Managers Corner section Mark began trading at age 16, and paid for much of his education at the University of California at Berkeley with his profits. Upon graduation, he day traded for a while before founding Investment Research Associates to finance research on stock, bond, and currency trading systems. He joined forces with Fortunet, Inc. in 1986, where he developed models for hedging and trading bonds, currencies, futures, and stocks.

In 1989, the results of his research were published in the Fortunet Trading Course. While with Fortunet, Mr. Boucher also applied this research to designing institutional products, such as a hedging model on over $1 billion of debt exposure for Mead, a Fortune 500 company.

Today, Mark will kick off the forum discussing risk control. To ask a question, simply type it in and hit the “Submit Question” bar–that’s all there is to it. You also can create a short subject heading for your question in the title space (it helps if you do). Past questions appear in the left-hand portion of your screen for easy browsing.

This is a moderated forum, so we ask that you respect the other guests and our featured speaker. We try to get as many questions as we can, so please be patient. Shortly after the forum is completed, it will be archived and available for review.

Submitted by Trial User:

Is your position risk based on non-risk money or your entire portfolio?

mark boucher:

Position risk is based on the entire portfolio. So if you have a $100,000 portfolio you can risk $2,000 per trade, maximum (and I’d prefer $1,000).

Submitted by yankee93:

With the increased volatility in the market, due partially I think to the expanded “collar” in program trading, do you plan to revise your stop rules?

mark boucher:

No. I do not revise my stop rules. However what volatility like this often does is revise the distance for you. In other words the distance from today’s entry to the last 6 pivot low in a volatile market may be 20%+ in most stocks today. While in a less volatile environment it may average 10%.

It is important to have tested your stop rules on a very very long period of historical data (we go back to the 1870’s) so that you can develop rules that are robust enough to hold up in nearly any market environment.

Submitted by Trial User:

Mark, in managing risk, do you manage how much of your portfolio is net long, neutral and net short? If so, how should one approach this?

mark boucher:

Yes. We usually try to have a goal of a range for what we want our net position portfolio-wide to be in a given environment based upon the position of our models and of the signals we are getting in runaway vehicles.

The simplist approach is to be 80/20 long in a fairly clearly bullish environment. Be 50/50 in an uncertain environment. And be either net short or in other asset classes in a clear bear market.

Around these basic parameters let the market tell you how to adjust based on the signals you get long or short from following runaway stocks with fuel. When you find for instance that you’ve been getting daily up signals but your models are not uniformly bullish (today’s environ- ment for us) then let your longs go half way to where they’d be if you were bullish and then pull back on taking new signals until all your longs are in a position where your trailing stops have locked in profits on all of them. Then you can add more longs if the market continues to generate buy candidate trades until you’ve added another 6% or so risk to original capital. Stop again until trailing stops lock in profits. Etc.

Basically you’re using models as a guide and signals as a guide and your letting the action of stocks in your portfolio tell you when you can add exposure without increasing risk to original capital.

Submitted by Trial User:

Mark, could you give more of your specifics on entry points, long and short. Thank you, Don.

mark boucher:

One of our favorite entry patterns is a flag pattern. This is where a stock has a steep runup lasting many weeks and then goes into a consolidation (it doesn’t correct 38% or the last runup, and ideally less than 26%). The stock consolidates for four weeks or more (or 21 bars if not using daily charts). Volume accumulation indexes begin to break to new highs and finally the stock breaks out to new highs on a gap, lap, or thrust pattern. Intermediate traders buy with an ops below the low of that four+ week consolidation.

Short-term traders go to intra-day charts and look for a flag within a flag. This is a half-hourly flag pattern just after a breakout of the weekly flag that allows you get on board a potentially long-term trade with risk that is based on half-hourly bars. If you get a good runup take half profits and then move your stops to break even and let it ride for all its worth – using daily chart ops levels. In this way short-term traders can profit from longer term patterns intermingled with short-term patterns that are used to cut risk to very low levels. This is how you can get ten-to-one reward to risk trades in a matter of weeks. The key is that short-term traders are patient in waiting for exceptional opportunities where the short-term patterns align with a trade that has long-term profit potential.

Submitted by Trial User:

Mark, I am confused. If you start with a 2% risk in a position and it becomes very profitable–let’s say it is now 5% of your portfolio–don’t you take this into consideration as far as adjusting your stops?

mark boucher:

Don’t confuse risk and allocation percentage numbers. If we buy a stock at 10 with an 8 ops in a $100,000 portfolio we can buy 1000 shares and take a 2% of portfolio risk ($2,000). This means we are allocating 1000 shares X 10 or 10% of the portfolio to this equity.

You then let the market tell you when to adjust stops on that position until it becomes greater than 33%-40% of your portfolio. Only then do you let the dictates of diversification force you to lighten up on the position because of the size of the position. Until this happens you are letting the market action determine your stops.

Submitted by Moderator:

Welcome to the tradingmarkets.COM Live Forum, featuring Mark Boucher.

Mark has been the manager of the Midas Trust Fund, Cayman Islands, since 1992. In 1998, his fund was ranked number one in the world by Nelson’s World’s Best Money Managers for its five-year annual compounded rate of return of 26.6%. He also is the author of the highly-acclaimed book “The Hedge Fund Edge: Maximum Profit/Minimum Risk Global Trend Trading Strategies” (1998, John Wiley & Sons). His indicator lists appear every night on tradingmarkets.COM’s Hedge Fund Managers Corner section Mark began trading at age 16, and paid for much of his education at the University of California at Berkeley with his profits. Upon graduation, he day traded for a while before founding Investment Research Associates to finance research on stock, bond, and currency trading systems. He joined forces with Fortunet, Inc. in 1986, where he developed models for hedging and trading bonds, currencies, futures, and stocks.

In 1989, the results of his research were published in the Fortunet Trading Course. While with Fortunet, Mr. Boucher also applied this research to designing institutional products, such as a hedging model on over $1 billion of debt exposure for Mead, a Fortune 500 company.

Today, Mark will kick off the forum discussing risk control. To ask a question, simply type it in and hit the “Submit Question” bar–that’s all there is to it. You also can create a short subject heading for your question in the title space (it helps if you do). Past questions appear in the left-hand portion of your screen for easy browsing.

This is a moderated forum, so we ask that you respect the other guests and our featured speaker. We try to get as many questions as we can, so please be patient. Shortly after the forum is completed, it will be archived and available for review.

Submitted by Trial User:

Are there any indicators/group of indicators, you find more useful than others ? Are there any indicators which give better results when a stock is falling, and others which are more applicable when a stock is rising?

mark boucher:

I don’t really like indicators that work significantly better in rising stocks than in falling stocks – what I’m looking for is robustness in the signal no matter what the environment. Too many indicators only work well in certain environments and can lead to big losses when that environment changes.

The most useful indicators I know of are relative strength and runaway price action combined with pattern recognition. These are really all you need and provide about 70% of the best input.

For longs look for strong relative strength vehicles that display runaway market patterns and give nice flag-type entry pattern consolidations.

Opposite for shorts.

Submitted by Topper:

Mark, what kind of time frame do you typically operate on?

mark boucher:

I try to operate on multiple time frames to diversify. Most of my capital is invested in weekly flag patterns that I will hold for months.

Then I allocate less to shorter term daily patterns. And half that on intra-day trading opportunities.

What you find is that if you operate on multiple time frames you get fewer surprises and less portfolio risk and you also get improved perspective.

However it is difficult mentally to operate on multiple time frames. Traders have a tendancy to over emphasize the shortest term time frame they’re looking at. The opposite should be the case. Remember to only look at daily and weekly charts for your main positions and that daily and intra-day charts are only useful for short-term trading.

Submitted by PlayToWin:

Does your risk management system vary depending on the type of investment, i.e., stock vs. stock options? If so, what is the difference?

mark boucher:

No. Although for options I typically assume 100% of the entry price is the risk. For commodities I also give a margin of error in case of limit down moves, etc. But I am basically risking 1%-2% on longer-term daily to weekly time period trades and 1/4%-1/2% for very short-term trades.

Submitted by Moderator:

Mark, you’ve emphasized the importance of market selection and risk control in your work. Let’s talk about risk control first. How do you decide where to place initial stops?

mark boucher:

Stop placement is one of the most important aspects of trading. Since I’m usually buying breakouts in this environment, I place ops’s, or open protective stops below the low of the consolidation that led to the breakout I’m buying. That is usually at least a six day pivot – meaning a low with six higher lows on either side of it, in the case of a sell stop, or a high with six lower highs on either side of it in the case of a buy stop.

For reactions the answer is a bit more complex, but generally the pattern itself defines where your ops is.

Submitted by tan11:

Do you think it’s possible to succeed being a purely fundamental or purely technical trader? If you had to choose between one or the other, which would you pick?

mark boucher:

Yes – I know many traders who are successful being just fundamentalists and many who are successful being just technical. If I had to choose one I’d choose technical.

However I also have a friend who lost one eye. He can drive with one eye I tried it, and I did OK. But I wouldn’t want to drive with one eye shut. That would just be using fewer of the resources God gave me. Same with technicals and fundamentals. Find everything on the planet that works well and combine them all!

Submitted by Moderator:

We’ll be closing the forum in a few minutes. If you have any questions left, please ask them now!

Submitted by Moderator:

Mark, have you found you’ve had to adjust your money management/risk control rules over time to adjust for changing market conditions, or do your rules adjust automatically (based on volatility, etc.)?

mark boucher:

Rules adjust automatically. Basically because we tested our rules on a huge volume of history encompassing many bull and bear markets we feel it is robust enough to self adjust. Since the mid 80’s it’s worked well for us.

Submitted by Moderator:

Do you use trailing stops, and if so, how do you decide how closely to follow your trade?

mark boucher:

Yes, I always use trai

Submitted by Trial User:

Mark,

I size my trade to 2% risk. I place my stop based on the charts. The stock goes up and now is worth 5% of my portfolio at risk. Are you saying that you would keep your original stop if the chart doesn’t show any new exit areas, thus risking 5% of the portfolio?

mark boucher:

Let’s say you bought our mythical ABC stock at 10 with an 8 ops, you bought 1000 shares on a $100,000 portfolio, risking 2% of “original capital”.

Now the stock moves up 3 points to 13 so that if it dropped back down to 8 your equity would drop 5%. Until the chart tells us to move the stop that is correct. The important point is that it is different to protect a profit than it is to protect “original capital”. Be vigilant in protecting original capital, but not as tight with profits as long as a stock is running up in your favor. When the stock makes a six pivot you can move your stops up to break even. Or if there is some exogenous event that makes you concerned you could also move your stop up to break even in this situation for at least 1/2 of the position.

But in general I would not move the stop until the market signaled it.

Submitted by Moderator:

MARK–DON’T POST THIS MESSAGE.

IGNORE THE PREVIOUS QUESTION WITH TITLE OF “BCLAY.”

MARK ETZKORN

mark boucher:

Thank you all for participating in this forum. I enjoyed it and hope that you can use the information to help you profit from the markets more consistently.

Good bye!

Submitted by Moderator:

Thanks, Mike!

Submitted by Moderator:

Are there any situations in which you would not use stops?

mark boucher:

Let me answer the prior question on trailing stops here first. Yes I always use trailing stops. Basically whenever a vehicle I’m long or short makes a multi-week (or 21 bar if not a daily chart) consolidation and then breaks out to new highs (long) or new lows (if short) then I will move the trailing stop to just below or above that respective consolidation support or resistence level

Submitted by Moderator:

This concludes our Live Forum. Thanks for all your questions, and thanks also to our trader/host Mark Boucher. Be sure to check out his indicators in the Hedge Fund Managers Corner section of tradingmarkets.COM, and his interview in the Trader Interviews section. Come back next Thursday, March 25, for our next forum.

This forum will be archived shortly for easy review.

Submitted by Philro:

How do you decide how many shares or contracts to commit to a particular trade, and how does that relate to your stop placement?

mark boucher:

Stop placement does not relate to size – size relates to stop placement. I manage for risk. Suppose that I buy a stock at 10 on a breakout and am putting an ops below 8 – then my risk in that stock is 2 points. If I have a $100,000 account I would never risk more than 2% on any one trade. That means that my maximum risk (or distance between ops and entry price) is $2,000. So in my example of 2 points risk, I could buy a maximum of 1000 shares of the stock because 1000 shares times 2 points = $2,000. Notice that managing for risk is different than allocating say 10% of capital to every trade no matter what the risk. In managing for risk you are allocating more capital to lower risk trades.


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